Welcome to Startup Revival, the number one podcast for Christian entrepreneurs, with your hosts Matthew Bell and Rafael Simpson. The world needs more entrepreneurs. Build something.
Matthew Bell: Hello everyone, this is Matthew Bell. Thanks for tuning in to Startup Revival.
Before we get started, I just want to remind you of a few things. Startup Revival is all about the community. So if you have any feedback or comments or questions you’d like us to address in the podcast, feel free to let us know. You can send us an email at [email protected]. And also, be sure to join the online community. Go to Facebook.com/groups/startuprevival. It’s a great place to meet other entrepreneurs and learn some new and interesting things. Thanks, everyone. Enjoy the podcast.
Well, everyone, welcome to Startup Revival. This is Matthew Bell again, your cohost. Along with me s always is my good friend and cohost and partner in business, Rafael Simpson, and we have a really special guest for you this week. His name is Gary Frey. We are super-excited to have the chance to speak with him and couldn’t be more excited about the opportunity to just hear from him and his wealth of experience. So everyone, it’s great to have the chance to speak to you. So Raf, why don’t you do the honor of introducing our good friend Gary?
Rafael Simpson: Yeah, I’d say it’s an honor to say the least, Gary. I’m so happy for you to join us today. You know, it’s been awesome. Everything that Matt and I have done with Startup Revival has just been fun. It’s not work for us, this is just a passion for us, and everybody that we come in contact with that we’re talking to and talking about the vision of Startup Revival has been so gracious. And you’ve taken time out of your busy schedule and literally, probably, Gary, you are one of my favorite people I’ve ever met. I met you, if you remember, through a good friend of ours, Bob Williams…
Gary Frey: Mm-hmm.
Rafael Simpson: …and just through our relationship you’ve really taught me so much about I think relationships over just business contacts and how good you are, [00:02:19] just story relationships, you really care about people. But I’m just so happy that you decided to join us. You’re the first guest on a Startup Revival podcast that Matt and I have both tried to interview at the same time, so I just want to apologize beforehand when I cut Matt off or he cuts me off because I’m sure that’s going to happen. But Gary, thanks so much for joining us. I want you to just give the audience a big hello. They’re Christian entrepreneurs and businesspeople just like yourself and we’re just looking forward to you just encouraging this audience today. But why don’t you tell them a little bit about your background?
Gary Frey: Well, first of all, a big hey from Charlotte, North Carolina, the city that I love and that I moved to in 1994 the first time. And so it’s a pleasure to be introduced by such talented young guys, and they’re young compared to me. So, I just want to say hey.
And yeah, just a little bit of background, I mean, I was telling these guys earlier that my career path is probably one of the most unusual ones that you will find. If you look me up on LinkedIn, connect with me, that’d be great. But I started my career as a designer and found out pretty quickly that one of the things that I was good at that I thought everybody was good at but I found out that that isn’t necessarily the case, and that is [00:03:40] a strength as a designer – so I can think through problems using the right half of my brain that is most associated with creativity, but I have an ability to translate those and talk with CEOs who are typically more left-brain-dominant. And I loved doing that and I was brought in to do my first turnaround when I was 28. I do not consider myself an entrepreneur because I believe that entrepreneurs typically call the nonexistent into existence and they are going forward whether anybody’s with them or not. I’ve typically been brought in more as a rescue guy or a new directions guy, and that was the case with my first turnaround at age 28.
It was an ad agency. It was actually an integrated marketing firm, and it was that before there ever was such a thing termed as integrated marketing. But the partner I was brought in to join was 20 years older than me. We turned it really by trying to just do the right thing through a series of a number of things, but in nine months went through kind of a shipwreck. It was already shipwrecked when I came in but went through another little dose of challenges, and then we turned it. And I really wanted to do the right thing. I wanted to install a Nordstrom level of service for people and give them something that they didn’t expect – high levels of creativity, great service and no negative financial surprises. If anything, what we try to do is always come in just a little under the budget that we’ve given them.
And that’s what was really our turnaround. Unfortunately, it turned into a—I discovered my partner’s impropriety from a financial standpoint – embezzlement. Forgave him, caught him again, and said, “This is enough,” which is what brought me to Charlotte, North Carolina.
I was very set on, “I am going to build a Fallon-McGelligot-style creative agency,” and that was my quest and my goal. And one of the things that happened along the way, I came to Charlotte, joined a guy, found out very quickly that all he wanted was a couple-of-million-dollar account that I had in my back pocket, and within about five months he broke the employment contract, owed me tens of thousands of dollars in commissions, and said, “Today’s your last day, so sue me,” knowing I had forgiven a couple of hundred thousand dollars in debt from the first [00:06:28] one.
That was a huge game-changer for me, not just financially but just in direction. I quickly got hired into one of the large banks in the country here in Charlotte and I hated it. Honestly, I hated it. But I started building relationships across the bank in order to try to do what was right for our customers and I would come home very often to my little boys and my wife, and my wife would school me in the evening basically saying, “Why are you coming home with such a bad attitude? You’re providing for the family.” But it was shipwrecking my goal, which was, “I want to build a crazy-good ad agency,” and working inside the bank was never going to do that.
But one of the things I think God was teaching me was the only thing that I could find of value in what I was doing, because this wasn’t that intellectually stimulating and it certainly wasn’t creatively challenging, was forging relationships across these various entities within the bank and with people that were not going to church, that were very different from me politically and philosophically, but we still had to get stuff done and I felt like that was the one thing I could find meaning and purpose in. And I remember telling my kids, which were 8 and 5 at the time, “I think we’re all called to be in full-time missions, and missionaries, if we’re going to follow Jesus, but I don’t think very many of us are ever going to get paid for it,” and it certainly wasn’t going to be me working inside a church because I just didn’t think that was what I was called to do. And I couldn’t see why in the world God would use advertising because it really didn’t have that much that was redeeming, with the exception of the fact that we had opportunities to use our creativity and get to know other people and forge a relationship with them that hopefully would have some eternal merit.
And so through the course of additional things—I’ve run four companies and have been in both of the big banks here in Charlotte—God has changed my perspective on a lot of things and it really comes down to I think we all are called to be missionaries and he’s given us a great commission to go and make disciples. Well, the only way you can do that is if you form a relationship with somebody and you truly love them and you truly serve them and you follow His Example, which He said, “The Son of Man didn’t come to be served but rather to serve.” And I think if we want to follow and do and have any sort of impact, we have to follow the Designer, the Creator, in how He designed it to be and how He behaved and set the tone.
So that’s a little bit about me. I’m a relationship builder and I love connecting people in order to solve problems and just hopefully make the world a little bit better place before Jesus comes back.
Rafael Simpson: Yeah, well Gary, you’re hitting on probably a hundred things in that little segment that I know that our viewers are probably highly interested in and you’ve got my wheels turning, my brain going. But I know you also definitely have Matt’s wheels going when you’re talking about missionaries in the marketplace and something that you’re hitting on about just building relationships and taking that approach to life and to business, and I just think that you’ve really mastered that art because you love it, you care about it, and you’re a genuine person and you really want to see the Lord shine through you in everything you do at work. But I’m sure Matt has some followups that he is dying to ask you, so I’m going to pass the ball to Matt. And Matt, you jump in because I know you’ve got probably a hundred things you’d love to ask Gary.
Matthew Bell: I have. I have many questions that came up to that. That was an excellent introduction, Gary. So one thing that I have that came up from that is you mention that we’re all called to be ministries but we’re probably not all going to be paid for it, right?
Gary Frey: Mm-hmm.
Matthew Bell: And I think you talk about—in the pre-interview we had the chance to speak a little bit more freely—you talk about being a missionary in the marketplace. I think one of the things that I come across a lot from folks in the church and I think that’s a well-hearted intention is that there’s this belief in the church that sometimes people believe that in order to serve God you have to be in full-time ministry, and I believe most of us are called to business or marketplace or some type of career, obviously to pay the bills and have a livelihood. But, so help me understand, what does it mean for you to be a missionary in the marketplace? Because I think that will be really insightful for a lot of people who maybe are sometimes dissatisfied with their career or dissatisfied with their work and they would rather be serving God, but I think it’s a super-liberating concept to say, “Well, you are serving God in the marketplace.”
Gary Frey: Mm-hmm.
Matthew Bell: So I would love to hear from your perspective, when you have that revelation, what light bulb went off in you? And then help me understand what it truly means to be a missionary in the marketplace.
Rafael Simpson: Yeah, and I’ll just say, Gary, before you jump in, that it’s interesting that when you answered Matt’s question, what stuck out to me is that I think what you were saying, you had that revelation in a job you didn’t even want to be in necessarily. So anyway, I’ve just added that point. [00:12:26] I think it’s just an incredible revelation to have in that moment.
Gary Frey: Yeah, and actually it was festering before that because, again, I was a creative, I was a designer, and the way that you got notoriety was you win design awards and that’s how it works. But the one thing that really bugged me is I went to a really cool church in the middle of nowhere in Kansas where I was raised that was a very interesting eclectic mix of everything from street people to surgeons and everything in between. It was a really cool thing. And I wanted to be more involved in that, and I almost turned down a role that was a defining moment actually for me as a designer, really hotshot, because I thought, “Well, I’m going to work in some little menial factory job where a lot of my churchgoers went.” And I was a drummer and I was tight with our bass player and he was working in this factory, and my wife—pay attention to your spouses, especially men, because women have a much better intuition I think as a whole—and she said, “No way. You are going to go and design. You’re made to do that.” But I thought there’s nothing redemptive, especially in advertising, I’m like, “Man, back in those days you had newspaper ads that were cage liners for my cockatiel.” So that really didn’t have much redemption.
But what I did find pretty early on was I was interacting and working late at night oftentimes on big deadlines with other guys that I was mentoring that weren’t all that much younger than me, because I was still pretty young at the time, but we were having amazing conversations about life and the meaning of it all and that sort of thing while we’re working on deadlines. And that was formative for me, but there was this tension of, “Well, if I’m really going to be serving God, I need to be in the church,” because that was the prevailing notion. But then to your point, when I was at this bank, 40,000 people at that point and it was kind of disorienting to go into middle management from running a smaller company of a dozen people or so.
And it was at that point where I had to find some meaning and some purpose, and unfortunately for us Rick Warren hadn’t come out with his Purpose-Driven Life book yet at that point. It would have saved me a lot of angst and grief. But I did get it like, “You know, this is the only thing that matters.” I always say management sets the tone in every family, a church, a business, a nation, and the universe, and if you really want to find out how to behave or what the expectations are look at who’s leading it. And again, I can’t think of a better example where you’ve got the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords and the Creator of all creativity and nature and heaven and earth, and how did he behave? He said He didn’t come to be served but rather to serve.
And that was the moment—I never really heard that spoken from the pulpit. I still did a lot of my volunteer work and I was discipling people and playing drums multiple times on the weekend at the church, etc. But it wasn’t until 2007 when it was kind of a by-chance thing I was in a private equity firm that bought my consultancy in ’05. [00:16:39] I thought I had invested it in ’04. That’s on that gentleman that we were talking about earlier. And we were bringing a bunch of investors together and we were going to be in Atlanta, and two headliner-type speakers that I was going to have at a prayer breakfast fell through. And I’m six weeks away, and I call one of my friends who was with our group that had run development for a very large international ministry located in Atlanta, is where he was, and I said, “Rick, I’m six weeks away, I need a businessperson, male or female, I don’t care, but I need somebody that’s been tried by fire. I don’t want an Atlanta Brave or a Falcon or pro athlete. I need somebody who has been tried by fire.” And he said, “Oh, that’s Os Hillman, hands down.” I’d never heard of Os. I started reading some of his stuff. I called him and miraculously he was in Atlanta that one day that we needed him, so we booked him and he spoke at this prayer breakfast for us.
But he was the first person that I’d ever heard that same notion and he called it “marketplace ministry.” And I thought, “Hmm, I guess, well, that’s what it is.” And one of his favorite things is a friend of his who was a dentist who would say, “I’m a missionary masquerading as a dentist,” which is great, but the thing is, listen, if everybody was in full-time ministry as we think about it in the Western world, [00:18:28] maybe you’re part of a church or a parachurch organization, first of all, we wouldn’t have electricity running through our homes, we wouldn’t have beautiful music from symphonies or bands that [00:18:44] have to use drummers like me, we wouldn’t have people that are writing, we wouldn’t have doctors, we wouldn’t have people that are paving the streets. God is a complex and very creative person and if we were all supposed to do one thing we would all probably look like robots. But look at nature itself. I mean, He’s amazingly creative and imaginative and creation itself just speaks of His complexity [00:19:12] and yet how those elements all work together, and that became a picture for me.
Rafael Simpson: Yeah, that’s really powerful, Gary, but it’s funny that it seems, I guess for Matt and me, for our generation of entrepreneurs, we so clearly see that we can have major kingdom impact in business.
Gary Frey: Mm-hmm.
Rafael Simpson: I’m not only talking about we can write a check to an organization that we believe in but that we can have an impact in people’s lives and we can have impact in the media and we can have impact—you said even in your advertising business that you’re like, well, it wasn’t so redemptive and whatever else, but those agencies were shaping culture for so long with what you were selling to people. So it’s interesting to have Christians in those positions that can really help shape culture and shape society. So I’m just very grateful that people like Os and others, Rick Warren and others, have come out. And for Matt and I, [00:20:21] marketplace ministry, that was introduced to me at such a young age. I understood that I didn’t have to be a minister to be in almost full-time ministry anyways because—even in the marketplace. Matt, I know you and I talk about this all the time, and I’m sure that there are still people even listening to our podcast that haven’t quite grabbed and latched on to this fact that what they’re doing has major purpose and major reason and it’s something important for the kingdom.
Matthew Bell: Yeah. Gary, just really appreciate you sharing from the heart, and I agree with you, Raf, I think that…for me I think it was…I’ll just share briefly that it was over 10 years ago at this point and I was considering going into full-time ministry because I had a passion for God and I wanted to serve him with my life. And I think the church does a good job at teaching you about God and how to live a godly life and to grow in the things of the Spirit, but I think the church sometimes lacks in teaching you how to use that outside of the four walls of the church for things that aren’t overtly ministry such as business, marketplace, etc. So I actually grabbed hold of Hillman’s content a long time ago myself, folks like Lance Wallnau too and other marketplace ministries, which was super-liberating for me because I felt that my purpose was making more sense for me now in the marketplace. And I actually had the privilege of reading Rick Warren’s book in college and that was really advantageous for me to read it at that time as well.
But, so Gary, I think people who are listening right now, I’d love to hear just from your personal background, what are some ways that they can kind of tap into this revelation and start to think about practically having an impact for the kingdom where they are in their career or in their job because, like you put it, when you were working in banking, you “said that you hated banking” until you had that revelation that this is part of your purpose, or I’ll let you speak to it. But what are some ways that as Christians in the marketplace we can start to have that revelation that we’re doing more than just punching a time clock and taking a salary, this is part of God has called us to do? And I think when you have that revelation that it becomes more than a job, it becomes a purpose and a life and a career. So there’s a difference between career and job. Career is something that you pursue throughout your life, a job is something that can often be just something that you go to, you view as a means to an end, which is a paycheck. But I think as Christians we should, we can, we have an opportunity to expand the kingdom in all aspects of our lives and we spend most of our time at work. So Gary, what are some practical things, practical advice that you have for folks listening who may be struggling with career or may be struggling with how they can serve God? What would you say to them?
Gary Frey: Mm-hmm, good questions. I guess one of the things that became really helpful to me is to understand kind of the difference, to your point, between career and a job, and there have been times that I actually idolize the career part. Again, back as a designer, what I want to do, I want to build a Fallon-McGelligot. That was and still is in Minneapolis, and a mentor of mine at an early age was also from Wichita, Kansas, and he was one of the guys that is credited with kicking that agency off. Believer as well, wildly creative, etc. But when I was outside of that swim lane, then I became extremely frustrated because I also felt like, well, hey, we’re all called to ministry. We’re all called most importantly in surrender to Jesus. It’s his universe not ours, it’s his kingdom not ours, and I think where we get into trouble is we start building our own kingdoms or our own lodges. I mean, I’ve seen churches where it was more about what I call lodge membership rather than the Kingdom of God because that’s how they get paid, that’s where the fuel for the fire comes, etc.
And at least in my case, it wasn’t an intentional idol. I thought it was a good thing. I thought that through success, and not necessarily the material success but through acclaim, through excellence, etc., then you develop a platform that you can then speak into people’s lives and it can be used… But kind of like when I went to Os Hillman, I said, “I want somebody who’s been tried by fire.” It wasn’t about notoriety that I was looking for ultimately. I was looking for surrender and humility, and oftentimes that comes through brokenness. And I’ve been through tremendous betrayal. Close to a million dollars of betrayal has left me. I’ve been swindled out of it or through just tough circumstances but including embezzlement and other things. But that wasn’t the purpose. The purpose was, “What are you going to do?” And I needed that crushing. Didn’t want it and I didn’t really enjoy it at all, but it was necessary I think because one of the things that Os Hillman, one of my favorite books in the world, and I’ve read a lot, is called The Upside of Adversity, and he went through seven years—he was also an ad agency owner—he went through seven years of losing everything, and the only real difference between his story and my story was his wife ended up divorcing him in the midst of that, and my wife, thank God, has stuck with me for 34 years through some highs and a whole lot of lows.
But this upside of Adversity book is really written about the story of Joseph, and Os sprinkles in that book some of his own experience but it’s really about four critical tests that Joseph went through that were really critical for not only him and his family but two nations. And the four tests were the betrayal test, which he called the Judas test, which is being betrayed by family or someone close to you, which he was sold into slavery at basically 17. Then he is in Potiphar’s house and this isn’t the career path that he was envisioning that was in alignment with his dreams of his brothers bowing down and all this kind of stuff, but he finds himself in a servant, a slave position. But he’s faithful and he’s serving his master, Potiphar, who happens to be a very powerful guy and probably has a smoking hot wife because he’s that powerful. And while he’s away, his wife repeatedly throws herself at this 17-year-old boy, and at 17 your hormones are really blowing out your ears, and yet he was faithful and he said, “I cannot do that because I don’t want to…” He could not betray God. He could not sin against God. Well, good job, buddy. You just passed the integrity test, which led him to the perseverance test of 13 years in a prison. Thirteen years – think about that. And God used his gifting, which one of those things was interpreting dreams, but he also developed leadership and especially servant leadership in the midst of really, I can’t imagine how wonderful an Egyptian jail would be but it’s probably not great, and yet he was faithful. And you think about it, even when it looked like he was going to get out by interpreting dreams for the cupbearer and the baker, he says, “Hey, remember me?” Two more years. I mean, think about that, you think about our own trials and tribulations, this was 13 years that he’s dealing with this and finally he passes the perseverance test. And by the way, Moses did 40 years of perseverance test in the backside of a wilderness. But he passed it because he said—
One of the things that Os says that is really profound, he said the most dangerous test and the one that is rarely passed, especially if you look at the kings of Judah and Israel, is the success test. And the success test, he had to have gone through these other things and he passed them in flying colors because that success test destroys many, where they think that they are all that and a bag of chips. I mean, look at Nebuchadnezzar, “Say, look at what I built,” and then before you know it he’s eating grass and they think he’s crazy. But he does come to his senses and realizes it’s pride. It’s a really simple thing called pride. But he needed to go through that crushing in that the passing of those three tests he wasn’t bitter, he chose integrity, he persevered, and what was at stake were two nations, what became the nation of Israel through his family lineage but also the nation of Egypt. And he was elevated, but it’s just an amazing thing to me.
And I think that’s where I go back where it’s really easy especially in America, “What’s your dream? What has God called you to?” etc., etc. “Hey Moses, what has God called you to?” “Oh, leadership [00:31:21] to identify with the Israeli people.” Well, he got thrown out of Egypt. He liberated one dude and he’s now doing what is the most despised thing in all of Egyptian culture, which is a shepherd. It’s the most lowly and despised thing. But after 80 years, he’s ready.
And again, I go back to that humility and brokenness, and I think that’s where it starts and, can we find meaning and purpose in serving Him? I think it’s important to know what our gifts and strengths are and use those things wherever God plants us. I mean, He used leadership that Joseph had in a prison. He used the ability to interpret dreams in a prison. And so I say, get to know what you’re uniquely wired to do.
I did all kinds, especially after the embezzlement, I did all kinds of self-assessments on the emotional quotients and every personality test under the sun and career aptitude, and I’ve got a pretty good idea of the things that I’m good at. But I have been able to take that across all kinds of industries, across all kinds of sizes of companies. Whereas before, I was pretty narrow-focused in like, “Well, this is what I am and this is what I do.” It’s changed a lot and, again, I planned, God laughed. Does that help?
Rafael Simpson: Yeah, that helps, but Gary, give the audience some encouragement too. I mean, look, not all of us have to go to jail for God to [00:33:13] through their talents.
Gary Frey: Thank goodness.
Rafael Simpson: I mean, look, I guess the big banks, that might feel like jail, and sometimes Matt and I are, oh, you know, we end up laughing about it because we’re going through trials and tribulations and it feels like constantly being tested and…
Gary Frey: Mm-hmm.
Rafael Simpson: And it’s interesting, yes, success is great and we all…I think people will probably think that are listening like, “Yeah, I’ll take the success test. I’m willing to try it out to win or fail at that one but just give me that test,” but just encourage the listeners that are going through that dry season right now that it’s where God has them and just I think it’s a good place to end it if you just give them a piece of encouragement in that season because I feel like a lot of people I’ve been speaking to recently—and this is timely—are in that phase of testing.
Matthew Bell: Mm-hmm. Yeah, that’s good. Well, it’s funny because going back a little bit to the [00:34:10] vocational ministry or ministry—and I remember hearing evangelists and missionaries from around the world come around and they would talk about stepping out on faith and living by faith and that kind of stuff—listen, man, if you are a commissioned salesperson, you’re living by faith. You are completely walking by faith. If you are running a company and all of a sudden marketplace conditions change, you are walking by faith.
And I think that vulnerability, embracing the vulnerability, is completely liberating for me. If you want to just say, “Well, it’s scary,” yeah, but life is scary. But it’s good too, man. We serve an amazing and all-powerful and a good God, and he’s wildly creative. But embracing that vulnerability and with the expectation and expectancy of, “Lord, I don’t know where I’m going today but I trust that you do,” I mean, for probably the last close to 20 years I’ve been praying every day Psalm 37:23 and 24, and it says, “The steps of a man are established by the Lord and he delights in his way, and when he falls he will not be hurled headlong for the Lord is the one who holds his hand.”
And every day, because my career path has been so strange and not what I would have planned, it’s been far better than I would have planned and it’s been far scarier than what I would have signed up for, but every day I go, “Lord, I don’t know where I’m going but You do, and so I’m asking You to establish my way. And I’m asking you too, Lord, to delight in my way. You said that you do and I’m going to trust that you do. Help me to delight in Your way today, to see where you’re going to take me.” And it says, “And when I fall”—doesn’t say if, it says when—“I will not be hurled headlong for the Lord is the one who holds my hand,” and I stick up my hand before I get out of bed and I say, “Lord, take my hand and hold me.” We have a good, good Father who has eternity in mind and He has a plan for us while we’re here on this Earth. Otherwise, as soon as we surrendered to him it’d be better to put a bullet in our head and say, “Well, okay, that’s it.” But that’s not His plan. He has a plan for us to make a difference where we’re at. People have made a difference in our lives and have [00:36:55] shown into our lives, which is why we can call on Jesus [00:36:59] He has done sovereignly and uniquely, but many of us [00:37:04] relationships.
And so I would start with that. “Lord, what is it that you would have me do?” Psalm 37:23 and 24. Seek out those things. Seek other people that will encourage you, that have been around, that can give wisdom, and go for it.
Rafael Simpson: That’s awesome, Gary. I’m feeling encouraged. It’s been a little bit of a desert season. Last week we talked about some crazy things that happened in some of my business ventures during Hurricane Irma. But Matt, I want to give you a chance because you haven’t got a lot of chance to speak and I know all this is really close to you too, but just maybe give the audience some final thoughts. And Gary, we’re looking forward to having you back on the show and diving into some of these things a little deeper. It’s been a pleasure. But Matt, why don’t you give some final thoughts? I know they’re stirring within you probably right now.
Matthew Bell: Well, I’ve been a listener on this podcast, too. Gary, you’ve been speaking to me. I think it’s been super-encouraging just to—I think the most encouraging thing is just hearing the thought that there is an upside to adversity.
Gary Frey: Mm-hmm.
Matthew Bell: And I know that you’re borrowing that from Os Hillman, but that is so powerful because in the entrepreneur journey, in the business journey, there is nothing but adversity on some days and Rafael and I, we know it firsthand. And we talked about it in the last podcast, so we won’t go too deep into that. But I think that what’s really resonating with me is just that, folks, if you’re listening and you’ve been through a trial, you’ve been through a struggle or an obstacle, take what Gary’s saying and look for that upside. There’s going to be something to gain from it, that if he can move on to success and a place of abundance and joy in his life after being conned out of a million dollars, I think we can all find upside in the things we’re going through on a daily basis. So Gary, I really appreciate it. I think this has been super-beneficial and super-practical that everyone can gain from it. I just thought I’d thank you for being on the show. I look forward to doing another one with you when time permits, but it’s just been a super-blessing. I have been encouraged and I know everyone else who’s listening I’m sure has as well. So we just appreciate your time. Thanks for joining us.
Gary Frey: It’s been my pleasure. I just wish we would have had podcasts and even the Internet back when I was your age. Thank you for using today’s tools in a manner to benefit other people. I think that’s one of the things we’re called to do, so thanks to using your gifts and talents to help others.
Rafael Simpson: Awesome. Thank you.
Gary Frey: Alright guys, have a wonderful day.
That was Startup Revival, brought to you by your hosts Matt Bell and Rafael Simpson. Tune in next week to hear more stories from entrepreneurs and businesspeople to inspire, encourage and motivate you in your business journey. Have a great week.
There's going to be something to gain from it, that if he can move on to success and a place of abundance and joy in his life after being conned out of a million dollars, I think we can all find upside